Liam T.A. Ford, From Journalist to Non-profit Startup Leader

 

162.Liam T.A. Ford

SPEAKERS

Liam T.A. Ford, Will Bachman,

 

 

Will Bachman  01:06

Hello and welcome to The 92 Report, conversations with members of the Harvard and Radcliffe class of 1992

 

Will Bachman  01:14

I’m your host, Will Bachman, and I am delighted to be here today with Liam T.A. Ford, who I knew very well as a colleague at the Crimson, when he would go by LTAF when writing in the open book. So Liam, welcome to the show. Glad to be here. Well, good to see you. So, Liam, tell us about your journey since graduating from Harvard.

 

Liam T.A. Ford  01:37

Well, so when I wrote what was supposed to be my last column for the crimson, the editors wished me luck and hoped that I found a good profession, like maybe running the Libertarian Party, because when I wrote column for the Tribune, I’m sorry not for the never wrote a column for the Tribune. I did work for the Chicago Tribune for a long time, but I wrote a column for the Crimson for a number of years, and was very libertarian in my viewpoints. And I would say that I wrote in in a note to some folks a while back that I moderated my politics in the face of reality. I went on and instead of pursuing academics, which I was thinking about a little bit in college, I decided to pursue sue a journalism career. I worked immediately after graduation for a while in a couple in a small PR job and then a copy-editing job. Then got my first newspaper job at the Montgomery Advertiser in Montgomery, Alabama, and moved from my hometown of Chicago to Montgomery in a $100 1979 Chevy Malibu classic and became police reporter that the Montgomery Advertiser. Worked there for exactly 14 months. I got laid off and came back to Chicago and worked at a wire service called the City News bureau of Chicago. My time in Montgomery was very educational. It was an interesting place to be. The first week that I was there, I got a call they transferred from the switchboard because they I later learned, because they thought I was going to be the Saturday reporter that week. And the first call I got at the Montgomery Advertiser was from the Grand Wizard of the local Ku Klux Klan, which was holding a rally on them on the Alabama State House steps that weekend.

 

Liam T.A. Ford  03:57

It was crazy, but I went on to at the advertiser. I went on to interview a woman who was one of the people who bailed out Rosa Parks from jail, and then also the head of the pulpit committee that chose Martin Luther King as the pastor for what at the time was the Dexter Avenue Memorial Baptist Church, which is now named after Dr King. And learned a lot about Southern culture and a lot about crime and a lot about reporting, and when I came back to Chicago, I ended up eventually becoming a political reporter for the wire service I was working for covered Richard M Daley, who was the second Richard Daley to run Chicago, and caught the attention of Tribune political reporter who helped me get hired there and I worked at the tribune for 20.

 

Liam T.A. Ford  05:00

Three years covering politics for a number of years, including the race where Barack Obama was elected, and then helped to start one of the Tribune’s attempts to respond to the Internet age, called the breaking news desk. We covered as the name implies, breaking news, but we were in charge of the crime coverage. Eventually, we when the city of Chicago started pulling back on the public information that they were giving out about shootings and homicides, one of our reporters started a database that the tribune then maintained for more than a decade of all the shootings and homicides in the city of Chicago, and I was a big part of maintaining those for the last five or six years that we had them. And then in 2021 I took a buyout from the Tribune, and I for a while worked on a nonprofit project called the Ignatian Mission Center, where the Catholic parish that I was part of had decided that it wanted to remain a resource for the neighborhood, even if the parish closed down. And with my buyout from the Tribune, I was able to help organize a nonprofit that took over the former food pantry that was at the parish. And after that was sort of started the organization. We didn’t get the food pantry started for another year. I went on and worked for another business, a business news wire covering public private partnerships for a while, and then about seven months ago, I left that job, and now I’m working full time on that nonprofit project. You know, along the way I my last few my last few semesters at Harvard were kind of peculiar. Now, a big part of my story since graduation is that in the last part, the latter part of my time at Harvard, I began drinking a lot, and then and started blacking out. I went to a few meetings, and when they didn’t stick, and so I drank for another decade before I actually got sober in 2001 and I’ve been sober since then. The anniversary of my sobriety is coming up in five days. In six days, I’ll have 25 years. Getting sober allowed me to get back together with my girlfriend, who’s now my wife. We met at the wire service that I worked at the City News Bureau, and we have two kids, one who’s in college and another who’s a junior in an art school here, Arts High School here in Chicago. And what I’m doing now is getting sober brought me back to the faith of my childhood, and I am now involved in this Catholic organization that runs the food pantry and is working on a much larger project where we’re trying to take over the former parish property and turn the turn the turn it into a social service center and convert the former rectory into a shelter for Spanish speaking women who have left domestic violence situations, as well as keeping the church portion of the sacred space of the church active as a shrine. But that is where I am. We’ve had the food pantry back open three years as of yesterday, actually. And in that time, we’ve gone from feeding about 15,000 people a year in our first year to 32,000 people in 2025 so we’re making a big impact, and seeing a lot of working with and seeing a lot of the folks who are affected by the current political situation. About half of our clients are Spanish speakers, many of them refugees and asylum seekers. We started the we were able to restart the pantry just at the point where the bulk of the migrant crisis was happening in the middle of, you know, it had been a few months since it had we had started getting migrants being shipped up here to Chicago, and our neighborhood has always been a destination for immigrants, and especially refugee and asylum seekers, and so we have a large number of Venezuelan, Ukrainian, Afghan and Syrian clients. Yeah. It’s a it’s a rich, full life. And now I have to say that a lot of what I learned at Harvard that I apply in my day to day life is the writing skills that I learned either at the Crimson or in the argumentative writing skills I learned in in working in government, in my government concentration.

 

Will Bachman  10:24

So that is a lot to unpack and get into. Thank you for your vulnerability and sharing about your journey to sobriety, and congratulations on 25 years. Do you want to thanks? Tell us more about you know, a lot of people try and are unsuccessful, and might try multiple times. What tell us a bit about your journey and what, what do you think was it contributed to helping you be, be successful at becoming sober.

 

Liam T.A. Ford  10:55

So, I mean, as I sort of alluded to, I did, I didn’t, I wouldn’t say, I know I have a lot of friends who are sober who, in a very real way, tried very hard multiple times. I didn’t really do that. I was able to tell myself after college, No, I never really drank in high school, I only really started drinking at parties, at the at the crimson and when I came back here after graduation, I didn’t have anyone that I really drank with. I went on sort of a marijuana maintenance program for a few months, and then when I left and went to went left Chicago again and went to my first newspaper job, I started drinking again, and didn’t really feel that it was that much of an issue, but it became clear, I think there are a couple things that I would credit for my ability to get sober. One of them was that I had people who were close to me, my girlfriend and my boss among them, who confronted me with my drinking multiple times. And I do feel like the integrity that so many of my fellow students at Harvard had, and the emphasis that we talk about, we people dandy about the idea of Veritas, of truth and seeking truth, and how that is what Harvard is there for. And I really felt that in my relationships with people at Harvard and when I was in the depths of my drinking, I cut myself off from a lot of people I had made friends with at Harvard because of shame, and I feel like the shame that I part of the shame that I felt, was that I was not being successful in the way that I felt I should be as a Harvard graduate, but Also I felt like I was not living up to what the promise that I had as an undergraduate at Harvard, and I also felt that I wanted to be at Harvard and in my life, in General, somebody who found the truth and let it get out there for other people to see. That was what a lot of what being a journalist meant to me was finding the truth and letting other people know about it. And at the end of my drinking, I could not, I could not say that I was an honest person. I spent a lot of time lying about my drinking and telling and trying to make people like me better by lying about various things, including my drinking and so at the point at which I was confronted with it and actually went, instead of saying, as I had multiple times, oh, I’m going to do something about my drinking and trying to limit it, or I started the path towards sobriety by trying to go back to church, and that just melt me. Felt made me feel worse, because I didn’t feel like I belonged among the people who were in the pews with me. The only way that I found a path towards regaining a spiritual life and life of integrity was being confronted with who. I was and what I was doing, and I tell this story, when I give a lead about sobriety, when I tell other people about my sobriety. I was in treatment, and there were people who would come in and give talk about their sobriety to us, and this one guy came in, and he gave a talk about how he got to be the guy in charge of a bar and bottle shop and the ordering of for the bar and bottle shop. And he lived across the street, and so he had 12 cases of gallon bottles of vodka delivered to the bar and 12 cases of gallon bottles of vodka delivered to his apartment across the street. And a month later, he got pulled he was pulled out of his apartment on a stretcher with jaundice and had to be hospitalized for, I don’t remember how long, but he had to be hospitalized for a good deal of time in order to recover from what he had done to his body. And when I heard that story, I didn’t think to myself, Oh, my God. He drank so much he got jaundice and had to be hospitalized. No, I thought to myself, Oh, my God, he got to drink for a month straight. And then thinking about my relationship with what does that say about my relationship with alcohol? My relationship with alcohol is absolutely ridiculously out of kilter. If what I think about that story is that the guy got to drink for a month straight, and not about how horrible his experience was. And so that started me on the path of actually examining my life and taking the help that other people offered me and making amends to the people who I had harmed to the extent that it didn’t harm other people, and living a life of integrity a day at a time.

 

Will Bachman  17:10

So tell me about what you learned about crime. Working at the Montgomery Advertiser,

 

Liam T.A. Ford  17:18

I learned a lot. I mean, it was, it’s funny, one of our fellow crime ads, Josh Gerstein, who’s still a journalist, right? Yeah, Politico. What I remember? I mean, I remember a lot about Josh in our years at Harvard, but one of the things I remember about him is bring around a police scanner, yeah? And, you know, I learned how to listen to the police scanner in Montgomery, and I learned that there was a writer for the Miami Herald at the time named Edna Buchanan who had written a few True Crime books, and from the perspective of being a longtime crime reporter, and also went on to write some mysteries. But one of the things that she said, and in my crime reporting, I always felt that this was an important part of what my role as a crime reporter was, was to humanize the people who were victims of crime, for the reader to make people realize that even if it’s someone who you might think is on the surface, a bad person, it’s somebody that someone loves. It’s the someone who dies in homicide, is somebody who deserves to be remembered. And we need, need to realize that every death is a loss. And I learned that, no, I learned a lot about how the system work, the criminal justice system in the United States, how, even with the best of intentions, those who are part of that system make it difficult for the families of crime victims to understand what’s going on in the system. So the first person I saw die was a 16 year old girl who I was listening to police scanner and I went to the site of where the police were responding to a 16 year old girl being stabbed, and I saw the paramedics work on her, and saw her then give up, and saw her die. And then the next day, I went out to her family, to find her family and talk to them about her, and they didn’t know anything about what had happened, even the most basic police report information that I had been able to. Get within a few hours after the stabbing and after her having died, because while the police had reached out to them to say and someone had done the proper notification to tell them that she had died, they hadn’t told them anything about their investigation, and I knew that there was public information out there. It was not very detailed, but it would give the family some understanding of what might have happened, and so I was able to convey that information to them. And so from that time on, that was one of the first murders that I covered, and from that time on, for the next 30 years as an occasional crime reporter and as an editor of many crime stories, and my last few years at the Tribune, I was in charge of our metro interns training on a number of different things and edited a number of them. I always made sure to emphasize putting the victim of the crime at the center of our reporting.

 

Will Bachman  21:12

So after 30 years of off and on crime reporting, what do you understand about crime, about police, that the everyday, ordinary citizen, those of us who aren’t in that world paying attention to it or reporting on it, what understanding did you gain that the consumers of the news don’t, maybe don’t have,

 

Liam T.A. Ford  21:37

I think one of the things that anybody who’s been involved in crime reporting or the criminal justice system, can tell you is that things are simultaneously a lot worse and a lot better than you might expect from the day to day, from just day to day, service crime reporting. One of the reporters who I worked with Peter Nikias, who actually went on to do a fellowship at Harvard because of his reporting and Nieman fellowship, he spent a lot of time centering the victims of crime, but also getting to know people who were part of the world of crime interruption which very often a lot of there’s a lot of misinformation about those folks, and there are certainly some Grifters out there who are still trying to live the criminal life and then act as what’s known as interrupters. According to you know, what an interrupter is, is somebody who used to be part of especially gang life, and then goes out and tries to work with the kids, especially who might be drawn into that life, or might be in that life and about to engage in violence and try to keep them from going further down that road of violence. There are certainly people who who say that they’re doing that, who are not legit, but through the reporting of other people at the Tribune and Pete’s reporting, I learned that a lot of those folks are legit and they make a big can make a big difference. You know, just little things can make a difference in the life of somebody who’s had a criminal conviction. One of the things that we see at our food pantry is that we work with a number of people who are recently released from incarceration, and people talk about recidivism among the criminally convicted. A lot of that, very often, has to do with people being unable to get jobs and turning back to what they know how to do, whether it’s low level drug dealing or low level theft or whatever, we see guys who come into our neighborhood from being released in from prison and who are Living at a residential Transitional Housing Center near us. They don’t they have difficulty getting jobs, but they volunteer with our food pantry for an extended period of time. We get to know them. We’re able to say these guys showed up every week at a set time when they never saw we never saw them engaging in any drug use or anything like that. They’re reliable. We’re able to give them a recommendation for a job, and they’re able to get a job, and just a little thing like that can be the difference between somebody going back into. To a criminal lifestyle and living a productive life as a peaceful member of society.

 

Will Bachman  25:09

So you’re also political reporter. For a long time, what were one or two of your favorite stories that you’re proudest of, that you covered as a political reporter?

 

Liam T.A. Ford  25:21

Well, I’m not claiming this myself at all, but my sister, who lives in Queens, likes to tell her friends that I’m the reason Barack Obama got elected president. I covered the 2004 Senate race in Illinois where Barack Obama ended up being the Democratic nominee, and so one of the ways that he got elected as the nominee was that a Democrat had his Blair Hall, had his Divorce Records released from Cook County Circuit Court, and they contain some scandalous information that allowed Barack Obama to surge past him in the polls and be nominated to run for the US Senate. Well, at the same time, I was covering the Republican side of the primary and the front runner, and indeed, the guy who won the primary named Jack Ryan, had a sealed divorce record in California and and he told the party leadership that his that there was nothing embarrassing in the file. He just had some things in there that had to do with protecting his son, but one of the things that, as a reporter, I have always been committed to is transparency. And I didn’t know what Jack Ryan’s divorce files included, but from a very basic search of the legal precedent, I knew that the precedent in California was that divorce records should be unsealed, and so I urged our attorneys and worked with other people, and the Chicago Tribune sued to have the Divorce records unsealed, and they did include embarrassing information and Jack Ryan, who probably, I mean, he was a great candidate in many ways. He was the type of Republican that we don’t see very often anymore. Who was he had worked for, I think it was Goldman Sachs, and then left investment banking to to teach at a South Side Catholic school or Catholic High School, and was really trying to emphasize outreach of the Republican Party toward the minority communities, both black and Latino especially. And the dynamic guy had some really good ideas, but with his having told party leaders that there wasn’t anything embarrassing in that file, he had to withdraw. And then the Republican party, the Republican Party, decided to bring in on another candidate from out of state named Alan Keyes, who’s kind of right wing firebrand who ended up losing to Obama 70 to 30 in the fall election, and so that whole campaign was just insane and a great experience covering so do you

 

Will Bachman  28:43

have any any stories on the Obama side? Any interactions with

 

Liam T.A. Ford  28:47

you know, I, I interacted with him on a number of occasions, but I didn’t, never really got very close, never got close to him. I don’t know if he would recognize me if he saw me again, but I covered him a few times where the when the reporters who were covering the Democratic side couldn’t cover it or cover him, or at a future and a few times after he was elected and when he was serving as US Senator here in Illinois.

 

Will Bachman  29:15

So what other stories are you proud of? Like often we sort of bemoan, rightfully so, the loss of local Metro desks and the Washington Post lost like a big chunk of their Metro reporters, but so it’s an important institution. What whether you know what story comes to mind for you, where you help bring wrongdoing to light or helping people understand, you know, City Hall or what’s going on in the local government, those sorts of stories.

 

Liam T.A. Ford  29:47

Well, it’s, it’s funny, because I was a political reporter, but when I first started out as a political reporter, I wasn’t covering electoral politics. I was covering a few local government bodies, and. But they were both working to remake the face of Chicago, the Chicago Housing Authority and then and the Chicago Park District and those neither of the Chicago Housing Authority has a lot less reach than it once did when I was writing, when I was covering them, they were in the midst of that, a long term plan to tear down a lot of the old public housing and rebuild with mid income communities, plan that still has never been fully implemented, which is very unfortunate. There’s still a lot of vacant lot on Chicago’s South Side that should be housing for people who used to live in public housing and for other people in the city. I covered that when the when Rahm Emanuel was on the board before he became a congressman, but then the Chicago Park District, it was fun to cover that because I was writing about various things, such as, I ran a team of reporters, including several interns one summer that examined where the park district put its resources for Team programs. And we found that now, one of the things that is kind of unique about Chicago, we have parks that include field houses, and so every field house is sort of a community center, and they have subsidized programming for teens and I mean up to every age, including teens, but but especially for teens and younger kids. And one of the things that Richard M Daley was trying to do was to make more alternatives for teens and more ways for teens to find it productive things to do with their time, and they had created a good deal of programming for teenagers. But because of I think we found that because of prior decades of investment in more affluent white neighborhoods in the physical structures where these this programming took place. There was a disconnect between where the teens lived and where the most programming existed, and so there was a lot less programming per capita for teens in the less affluent neighborhoods of Chicago, and that was I was really proud of doing that, of being able to prove that and put the focus on what the programming would be. Since that time, the city has done a number of things, including under daily to improve teen programming. There’s a program that actually one of my my younger kid, has participated in called After School Matters, which was created around the time that we wrote those stories, that now operates out of a large number of the high schools and in Chicago, as well as a central office downtown that provides basically employment for teenagers involved in the arts. And I like to think that our the Tribune’s emphasis on trying putting a focus on teen programming helped to bring about programs like that. The other thing that I did when I was covering the park district was I why it was important to have someone on the park district at the time was that Chicago was going through the process of approving the renovation of it, its main football stadium, Soldier Field. And that was, as we found out in our investigations, a $733 million project that still is costing Chicago’s taxpayer Chicago taxpayers money. And I ended up we think of it at first blush, and most people who know about it outside of Chicago know it as the home of the Chicago Bears, but the stadium. I learned while I was covering the renovation that the stadium had been created as an attempt, as part of Chicago’s attempt to get the Olympic Games here. And so it was never designed as a football stadium. It was a cultural center for its first 50 years. It was the place where most of the largest religious and cultural events in the city of Chicago took place from the time it opened. It first opened in 1924 until the bears started there in 1971 so I ended up writing a book about it for the University of Chicago Press because. It was so central to the career of the Democratic politician Ed Kelly, who was one of the people who started the Democratic machine in Chicago.

 

Will Bachman  35:11

Wow, all right, any other books that you haven’t mentioned?

 

Liam T.A. Ford  35:17

No, that’s the only book I’ve written. It’s funny, because when I was built, it’s Soldier Field, a stadium and its city,

 

Will Bachman  35:26

all right, okay, so with quite the great

 

Liam T.A. Ford  35:29

since I hadn’t pursued academia, it was quite the experience, because it was since it was published as part of a new series by the University of Chicago Press called Chicago visions and revisions that series is still going on today. The book was published in 2009 the intent of the series is to create a popular, a more popular series of books about Chicago published by the U of C press. But I had to go through peer review and had rewrite the book a bit according to peer the comments from peer review. It was quite an experience. My editor said I should have gotten a PhD in history for for it, but, but it was fun.

 

Will Bachman  36:16

All right. Well, for the rest of the show, Dr Ford, we’ll call you. So I wanted to hear just a little bit more about the situation with your parish and the nonprofit and the pantry. Like you said the parish is shutting down. Or how does that work? And I’ve always been curious what happens with the like the local property or something. Just explain the situation of what’s going on

 

Liam T.A. Ford  36:39

so So being the sort of legal geek that I always have been since before college, but I know no enormous amounts about Catholic canon law. So what happened was that our parish was st Ignatius Parish, and it was founded by the Jesuit order and neighborhood people when Loyola University of Chicago moved from Chicago’s west side up here to the far north side of Chicago Rogers park just south of Evanston, where Northwestern University is and it was until it closed, the smallest parish in the Archdiocese of Chicago, which, at one time had more than 300 parishes. It was bordered on the south by a larger, largely white Parish, and on the north by a largely Latino Parish, and we were sort of the mixed parish, but we were very small in comparison to the others in some ways. And so we knew that it was possible that when the Archdiocese went through this process that they called renew my church for our area, that we would be the odd band out and the parish would close. So we went through a process starting in 29 in the fall of 2019 at the parish, to try to come up with an idea for how the parish property, even if the parish were to close, could continue to be a resource for the neighborhood. We had the food pantry operating out of the parish since the early 1970s and what we came up with was this idea that we called, and are now calling, a Mission Center, the Ignatian Mission Center. Specifically, the idea is to wrap social services around the food pantry. Loyola University is our neighbor with it’s just like three blocks from its main campuses, just three blocks from the church campus. And when people, as I wasn’t involved in the initial idea, but became involved when I took the buy up from the Tribune, or a little bit earlier than that, but when people brought this idea to various Loyola and university departments, one of the things that Loyola has been interested in doing is making their social Service Clinics and social service agencies that are run by their various departments more available and visible in the neighborhood. So for example, we’re we are at the point where we’re working with the Loyola University nursing school, which is expanding their enrollments, and when we hope to be back at the San Ignatius campus with a medical clinic, or some other sort of presence from the nursing school when they went to the different departments like the nursing school, the school of social work, which has a family counseling clinic. Nick the law school, which has a legal clinic, they all were interested in helping to to work with the food pantry and provide social services. So we came up with this idea. It in the renew my church process. It did the Archdiocese, the cardinal, Cardinal Cupich, did make the decision to close st Ignatius as a parish, but then made the decision that the local leadership should continue to pursue the idea of a Mission Center. I was part of the group that wrote the proposal for the three parishes on what would happen with the parishes and the cardinal, in his letter deciding to close the parish, said that we should continue to work on the idea of the Mission Center. So I became part of a committee that eventually formed a nonprofit. It took us a little the parish closed at the end of July, 2021, I worked on creating the nonprofit for the next several months because I had just taken a buyout from the Tribune. Then I got another job and worked on the project part time. We eventually were told by the Archdiocese we couldn’t rent part of the property in order to keep the pantry going, they wanted to either lease the whole thing or and not least part of it. And so we ended up renting a temporary space where the food pantry is now that opened in early 2023, three years ago yesterday, and that since we opened that we’ve been working on trying to put together plans for the larger project. With some information that we had from the Archdiocese, we were able to get a real estate consultation that then allowed us to get a city of Chicago planning grant. We now have architectural plans and cost estimates for what it would cost to convert the basement of the church into a real food pantry and social service center and convert the rectory into a transitional shelter for women and their children who have left left domestic violence, while also creating a Child Care Center on the first floor of the rectory, and we had enough of our information and plans together in the spring of last year that it looked like someone needed to be able to take this on full time. And it just happened that through family circumstances, my wife and I were able to figure it out financially so that I can work on this for now the next two and a half years, without having to draw much of a salary from the nonprofit. So we’re now in the early stages of the capital campaign and running a food pantry that’s serving about 700 people in about 200 families a week. So Wow.

 

Will Bachman  43:05

Liam, tell us about any courses or professors that you had at Harvard that continue to resonate with you in some way. I have

 

Liam T.A. Ford  43:13

to say that one of I took a lot of courses with Harvey Mansfield, but I have to and he taught me a lot, but I but it’s funny, I’m sitting here and what was, what is my older son’s room, and I’m looking at justice by Michael Sandel, and one of the courses that feel like taught me the most about the about how important it is to examine my own biases and my own assumptions about the world. Was government 1061, which my year I was lucky enough to have Michael Sandel and Harvey Mansfield co teach it, so they would alternate on who was giving lectures and there are different approaches to trying to find the truth in the readings on political philosophy have really always stuck with me and how to people who very clearly committed to finding out the truth and seeking the truth were came to in many ways, so many different conclusions, and how that should guide my ability to understand that the truth is not always what I see. That has stuck with me throughout my life and made a big difference in my ability, for example, as a political reporter, to be able to honestly approach the people who I was covering with an open mind.

 

Will Bachman  44:52

Liam, for listeners that want to follow up with you or just keep track of what you’re doing, where is the best place to find you online? So.

 

Liam T.A. Ford  45:00

It’s our website. Is the WWW dot ignation, mission.org, that’s I g, n, a T, I A N, mission.org, that gives a good picture of what my nonprofit is doing, and it’s a lot of what I’m doing, I’m also I’m on Facebook. I know a lot of people aren’t anymore, but I have to say we Harvard folks, too. Many of us are still on so in order to keep up with people, I got to stay on it. But I’m also on LinkedIn, and you can find me there, because that’s where you found me.

 

Will Bachman  45:38

That’s right, all right. Liam been great to reconnect and hear about your journey. Thank you so much for joining today.

 

Liam T.A. Ford  45:47

All right, thank you so much. Will take care.