Patrick Jackson, Answering the Call

SPEAKERS
Patrick Jackson, Will Bachman

Will Bachman  00:02
Will Hello and welcome to the 92 report conversations with members of the Harvard and Radcliffe class of 1992 I’m your host. Will Bachman, and I’m delighted to be here today with Patrick Jackson. Patrick,

Patrick Jackson  00:16
welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here.

Will Bachman  00:19
So Patrick, tell me about your journey since graduating from Harvard.

Patrick Jackson  00:26
It’s, it’s, it’s been an interesting one.

Patrick Jackson  00:31
Some some people that I’ve met along the way say I’ve lived a few different lives since then. But my wife likes to remind me that it’s just, you know, part of the journey, and that nothing is wasted in terms of our experiences. I think the day of graduation, my mom and our brothers were there. And later that afternoon, I think we love we actually piled into the car, or the van, and they drove me to DC and dropped me off like that day, I think because I had a friend there I was staying with.  I was going to stay with him while I had an internship at the Small Business Administration for the summer. I decided that after college I would go to Capitol Hill and try to make my way there. It springs from an experience I had as a junior in high school. I was then in the US House page program.  I was a page for my full junior year of high school. So I was there at 16, first time really away from home. And it was, it was one of the greatest things I could have ever done. I mean, it was a transformative experience. I grew up in Tennessee and just outside of Memphis in what growing up was just an unincorporated area of Shelby County. It didn’t become part of Memphis until, till some years later.  I grew up in my great grandmother’s home that sat on a two and a quarter acre plot that my great grandfather had bought and built a small home.  You can’t call it shotgun house, really, it’s a small four room house with no indoor plumbing. And so that was my experience until age 10.  We had an outhouse. I like to say we had an outhouse, a smokehouse and a well, until I was, you know, about 10 years old, and then we got a real bathroom and indoor plumbing.  And you know we, you know, as a kid, you know, we felt like he had made it then. But you know, we never saw it as like a tragic experience, it’s just what we knew and and there’s some things about that experience that that I miss, in terms of, like being able to have that blessing of my great grandparents and then just the neighborhood that we had.  My mom still lives in the house. It’s not the same though. It’s been renovated, thank goodness, since then, but my mom still lives in the same place that that we were in, and that part of the neighborhood is still just a two lane road. I think they’re waiting. Developers are waiting for the last remaining holdouts to to leave or pass away or sell before they do any major further developments. But that was kind of my formative space before going to Harvard, and that kind of helped ground me, I think, in a way going forward. And so that Page experience fueled my interest in politics and government. And I was really, I was thinking about med school, actually. Really, until, you know, until then I had thought I wanted to be a coroner, of all things, I think probably from watching too many episodes of Quincy, dating myself.   But a friend of mine on the football team in high school, his mother worked, I think, in the coroner’s office or something like that. She said, Patrick, if you really want to do this, you need to kind of get a sense of what you’re going to be exposed to. So she, got both of us, you know, me and her son, a tour of the coroner’s office. And we saw some things and, you know, I was like, you know what this might not be for me.

Will Bachman  06:02
What was it that you saw?

Patrick Jackson  06:05
we saw some of the photos of burn victims and and watch the end of an autopsy.  And we saw, you, it’s not a freezer, but the, you know, the the area where they keep the bodies and everything. And so I kind of, at that point, I decided maybe that wasn’t really the path I wanted to take.

Will Bachman  06:36
I’m sorry, it’s just so extraordinary of experience. I gotta ask about it. So sure, you’re growing up in this house with no indoor plumbing, right? I mean, that’s not too many of our classmates had that experience. Can you just tell us? I mean, I think that the page program, it’s typically probably more, you know, connected to the upper middle class,

Patrick Jackson  06:59
yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. It was, it was

Will Bachman  07:03
having indoor

Patrick Jackson  07:04
plumbing. It’s improbable when you take a step back and take a think about it. I mean, I think it’s, you know, I I’m a person of faith, and so for me, I believe that, you know, God opened certain doors for me, for whatever reason he decided to do that. But in high school, my shot put coach, my track and field coach, was also the civics and government teacher at the high school, coach. I call him. He’s always going to be Coach Hawkins. To me, Mac Hawkins, who is a retired military man and, you know, in a way, he kind of became like surrogate father to me. I don’t want to alarm people.  I want people to take this the right way. But my great-grandmother called him my white daddy, not in a not in a negative or pejorative or racist sense, but in the sense that he was one who took an interest in me and helped me out, took me to, you know, took me home from practice and and did things that, you know, helped out a lot when my mom was working.  You know, we were, you know, single parent home. So my mom was there, my great grandmother was there. My great grandfather passed when I was nine, and so it was just in the household. It was me, my brothers, and my great grandmother and my mom. So that was the household.  So Coach Hawkins and I, you know, we would talk a lot, and I, you know, got to know him and his dad, who was retired military as well. And Coach Hawkins found out about an opportunity because he kept up with politics, and somehow he had met then Congressman Don sunquist, who’s a Republican member of the House, and he found out that Congressman Sunquist was looking to make an appointment, a Page appointment.  And I wasn’t actually the first person that I think Coach approached about it, because an acquaintance of mine, Melanie, who was a year older, who lived in another neighborhood, he actually told her about the program but she was actually a year too old. And so he asked Melanie to come tell me about it and ask me to go see him. And so I went to see Coach Hawkins, and he told me about it. And you know, he told me to get the application, fill it out and, and send it in. This was, sophomore year of high school. And so I was, I was playing football and, and, you know, taking, you know, advanced classes and stuff and keeping busy. And so I didn’t think anymore about it. I sent it in. Had a really good sophomore year of football and stuff. And, you know, was focused on just going forward with that.  I didn’t have any idea about going anywhere other than where I was. And so in the spring of my sophomore year, I started to hear back about my application, that I had gotten an interview, and now I guess I was a finalist, or whatever. And so I interviewed with Congressman Sunquist’s staff person, I think, and found out later that I got the appointment. And so, you know, my life changed significantly. And as I began to share that with you know, some of the people you know, and some of my coaches and stuff and and other teachers, I got some mixed reactions.  My mother was like, you’re going, yeah. She’s like, it wasn’t really, it wasn’t really a discussion, right?  She was like, you’re going. And, you know, my mom had never, I don’t think my mom had ever been to DC, and she didn’t know what exactly it all entailed, but she knew this was a great opportunity. So she’s like, this really isn’t a debate; you’re going and so I started to tell, you know, some of my coaches and stuff about it, and one of them, not going to give his name or anything, because, you know, I had great respect for him, and I still do. But he said, you know, Patrick, it takes a special kind of person to like that. You know, basically, I don’t know if this is the right opportunity for you.

Will Bachman  12:11
Hold on, Patrick. Patrick, hold on a second. Um, we’re recording right here, folks with video turnout, let’s turn our video off, because you dropped for just a second. And I want to make sure bandwidth so, so say that again. What was the Why don’t you turn your video off as well? Okay, tell me again what I’m sorry I missed what he said. What was that? What that other coach said, what was that?

Patrick Jackson  12:35
That about the team? Gotta think about the team and what it means, you know, if you left and, and I just thought it was kind of silly.

Will Bachman  12:57
I’m sorry, Patrick. Patrick, hold on, just a second. We’re having a little bit of connectivity issues. You’re coming in and out a little bit. You might want to try. Maybe you could dial into this. You could switch to phone audio. Maybe you’ll have a better connection there. We can, we can delete out this little dead part because you were dropping a couple times.

13:21
Okay.

Will Bachman  13:27
can you hear me? Yes, all right, so yes, I can hear you if you click on Audio. And then right next to it, there’s a little button that says, switch to phone audio. It pulls up a set of numbers that you can dial, and then you’ll need, I think that meeting ID,

13:47
okay, I can do that. Yeah, why don’t you just try

Will Bachman  13:49
that with your phone. You don’t have to drop off yet. Try that with your phone, and I’ll admit you. And then we can switch over to to that. Okay, see if. We’ll see if that’s any better. I

Patrick Jackson  14:07
to zoom, enter your meeting ID, followed by pound, you. Enter your participant ID, followed by pound, otherwise, check you are in the meeting. Now there is one other participant in the meeting. This meeting is being recorded.

Will Bachman  14:40
Hello, yeah, can you hear me?

14:42
Yes, I can. Can you hear me?

Will Bachman  14:44
Yes, alright, so maybe we’ll okay. We’ll go forward with that. Alright, so let me start the question again. I’ll just ask the question again. So then you can

Patrick Jackson  14:54
so you want me to, you want me to close out of the zoom on my. Computer.

Will Bachman  15:00
No, you can stay there. It’s fine, okay, yeah, I don’t think that makes a difference. Okay? I don’t think, yeah, because I think if you close out of zoom, then we would lose your voice. So that’s not good. Okay, okay, so why don’t you see I’ll start we’ll start up again. I think you were telling me about, you were saying, like, not everyone was positive your mom, your mom said, like, you’re definitely going and then you’re about to tell me about the other coaches, why don’t you start from

Patrick Jackson  15:30
there? Sure. Um, the the initial reaction I got from one of my coaches was that, you know that this, you need to think about whether this is the right opportunity, because it takes a special kind of person to do this, and with the implication that maybe you’re not that kind of person who can do this. And then another question that came was, you know, you have to think about the team and what you’re doing to the team by leaving. And I thought that was kind of silly, you know, I was like, How can you not be happy for me to have this kind of opportunity?  But you know, I didn’t let that hinder me in any way. I, you know, they, we got the arrangements made, and they flew me to DC that, I think the beginning of September, I think it was  the beginning of september of 1986 and so that was my first airplane flight. Wow. And I do remember it well, because there was turbulence, significant turbulence. And you know, your first flight, something like that happens. You don’t really forget it. But I remember, I know my eyes were probably as big as saucers after they sent a car for me to pick me up at the  airport and take me to where we were staying in the dorm at the time for the House pages.  We were on the third and fourth floors of what was the Old Congressional Hotel, which later became House Annex One, which no longer exists. It’s a parking lot now, but that was where they had the the guys on the third floor and the girls on the fourth floor. And we were all 16-17 years old. So and I was there from September to June, and that that experience of, you know, working as a page in the House of Representatives and and getting to learn about that, you know, learn about our government from the inside, and have that experience was, you know, really transformative, and that really fueled me, even when I got to college and ended up concentrating in government and taking courses in government, history, but also music. But that’s another story.  And so that that’s how I ended up really considering going to Capitol Hill. Also, there was a friend of mine whose twin brother was at Harvard a year ahead of me, he was at Amherst College and had gone to Capitol Hill that year before, and so I at least had, you know, one contact, you know, when I got there. So do

Will Bachman  18:52
you think that you would have considered applying to Harvard and done the things you’ve done in life if you hadn’t had had that experience?

Patrick Jackson  19:01
Oh, absolutely, yeah, no, I think it definitely had an impact on on exposing me to a life beyond the neighborhood. Yeah, my horizons were definitely broadened after that Page experience and meeting kids from all over the country and, and, you know, being able to to be exposed to, you know, high caliber faculty and and learning to dream a little bit bigger.  Yeah, I think, definitely influenced me to think about Harvard and some other places in terms of applying to college.

Will Bachman  19:50
So I have this quote printed out and pinned above my computer monitor, and I just want to read this. It’s from Tyler. On, and it says at critical moments in time, you can raise the aspirations of other people significantly, especially when they are relatively young, simply by suggesting they do something better or more ambitious than what they might have in mind. It costs you relatively little to do this, but the benefit to them and to the broader world may be enormous. This is, in fact, one of the most valuable things you can do with your time and with your life. And wow, Coach Hawkins really exemplified that quote.  What an extraordinary thing he did by getting you to apply for this. But I’ve kind of detoured us. Let’s but let’s Okay. So let’s return back to you just graduated, and on graduation day, your your your mom dumps you off in DC and says, Good luck with the internship. Pick up, pick up the story back, where you left it there.

Patrick Jackson  21:01
So I had an internship, you know, with the Small Business Administration. I think that that this would have been 1992 so, so at that point, I believe it was Bush one was finishing his term, that very, you know, pivotal political year. But, you know, I didn’t have…most of my connections in DC were Republican connections, and so that was, you know, that was how I was able to get that internship with the Small Business Administration, just, you know, doing admin things, and, you know, maybe writing some, you know, helping responses and organizing, nothing too high level, but it got me there. And, you know, gave me a few bucks so I wouldn’t starve, but I wanted to, I had the bug. I wanted to go to the House and work in the House as a Legislative Assistant. And so that gave me an opportunity to look for positions, you know, on the hill. And I was able to get a temporary spot with then-Congresswoman Barbara Boxer, who was running for the US Senate at the time, and in 92 so I went. I started with, with Congresswoman Boxer’s office, I think, in September of that year, as a like a lower level kind of legislative aide, not even having that title, and she ended up winning her election, and I was invited to go to the Senate office as a as a legislative correspondent.  That’s the the front line in terms of answering the 1000s, or, you know, millions of constituent letters that come into senators’ offices. There were, so there were a number of us who were assigned to that, and then we were divided up by issue areas. And so that’s what I did for a good chunk of 1993 but I was hungry and impatient, and I wanted to move up quickly. I wanted to have more responsibility, and so I ended up leaving Senator Boxer’s office and going to the House to work for Congresswoman Nydia Velasquez from New York. And think it might have been November of 1993 and I joined her staff as a Legislative Assistant. I was her staff person for her work as a leader in the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. And I also covered health care and some other issues for her.  One of the significant experiences that I had there was when she was testifying during the healthcare debate about privacy and during her campaign, someone had obtained and leaked some of her medical records, and I had to help to write her testimony for that. She kind of relived that experience, and that was when, when she read it, when she shared her story, you could hear a pin drop in the room. Just the toll that it took, you know, because there were some things that she didn’t want public in there, and and so that was, that was a, it was a, it was a tough day, but it was a good day, because I think it helped, helped a lot of people.

Will Bachman  25:44
yeah, yeah. Did that end up leading to the to the HIPAA laws?

Patrick Jackson  25:49
Well, that was part of that debate. Yes, I don’t, I can’t say that, you know, the incident led to it directly, certainly not, but it helped with the, with the debate about privacy and HIPAA and helping, helping add to, you know, the chorus of voices calling for, for that important law to be made, to be enacted, alright,

Will Bachman  26:13
okay, so, what happened on your journey, after your your period there as a congressional aide?

Patrick Jackson  26:23
Well, I was, I was on Capitol Hill from 92 to 98 and I moved around just because I was young and impatient. And so in 95 I think in spring of, in sort of April or May of 1995 I left Congresswoman Velazquez’s office and went to work for what, who was then a cardinal, an Appropriations Subcommittee chair, the late Julian Dixon, from California. And it wasn’t, wasn’t something I was looking for. But a friend of a friend came to me, and I said, Hey, Patrick Congressman Dixon is looking for, you know, somebody on his staff, you know, to do his healthcare appropriations work. Are you interested?  And I, you know, threw my hat in and and ended up going to Congressman Dixon’s office. He passed away in 2000 but I was there from with him, from 95 to 98 when I went to law school. So that was, you know, I learned a lot. And one of the interesting things about working for Congressman Dixon is that, I don’t know if you remember what was going on in the nation at that time, but there was this, the, you know, a serious move in terms of the ascendance of Newt Gingrich and the Contract with America and and and the Democrats lost the house, and so Congressman Dixon had gone from being an Appropriations Subcommittee Chair to being a ranking member, and so the majority party makes the rules and as you know, and so that was a different kind of experience. But what we learned was that, you know, when you have strong relationships across the aisle, you can get some things done. Congressman Dixon was a senior African American Democrat in the House, but he was part of a tight California delegation that worked together to get things done for the state, both, you know, Democrats and Republicans coming together to ensure that things like, you know, important medical research funding for, you know, top universities, things like helping the public hospital systems in California and making sure those were shored up, things like that, that they were able to work together on. And, you know, we were instructed in no uncertain terms from Congressman Dixon that we were not to speak ill of any member of Congress in His presence. And what happened for us is that even in those times when you know we needed help to get some things through, from the from the majority, we got our calls returned. When we called, you know, one of the staff from, you know, the Republican chairs or of the subcommittees or the or the Republican staff of the full committee, they called us back and and for the most part, helped us. And I think that had to do with the fact that Congressman Dixon had garnered allies both on both sides of the aisle and and the fact that he dealt, you know, that you heard that term straight shooter, yeah, but people kind of felt that way about him. And yeah, he was a great champion of for things in this community and the state, but he treated people with respect, and he believed that you could have relationships, you know, with people, regardless of party or affiliation, and that, you know, you didn’t have to take work home with you all the time. And so we there were times when he, you know, last minute, you know, we’re working late, or the house is getting out late, and say, hey, you know, let’s go. Let’s go get some dinner. And so we go, and there’d be, you know, some Republican member of the House, and they go up and have their conversation, and, you know, we’d be there as well, so it’d be, it was kind of an interesting experience, and one that I will always treasure.  I also owe a great debt to Tracy Holmes, who was his Chief of Staff, and she was a hill veteran and a woman who was just very skilled in working with people and helping us to be our best. And so I owe a lot to Tracy and just the, you know, the team that you know, he had put together. So,

Will Bachman  31:49
wow. What a story about kind of the the Washington that, at least from what you read in the press, has to some degree, disappeared of politicians who could work across the aisle.

Patrick Jackson  32:05
Yeah, it’s difficult to see what’s what’s going on. I still have a few friends there who are, you know, involved in different ways, and some you know, who are lobbying and involved in different aspects of the political scene, but I would find it difficult to be there now, in the environment that that we’re in now. So,

Will Bachman  32:34
so you say you went to law school, and yes,

Patrick Jackson  32:38
I, you know, and my what’s funny is like when I when I did go to Capitol Hill initially, in 92, I was thinking, well, I’ll work for a couple of years and then go to law school. Seemed like the right path, or whatever, but I guess I was enjoying myself too much on Capitol Hill. So two turned into six, and so I end up going to law school, but also one of the things I was experiencing by, you know, by that six year was like I kind of needed a break from the Washington scene, I guess. And I end up going to University of Wisconsin Law School in Madison and and so I was in Madison for three years. And, you know, met some great people there.

33:40
Law school was

Patrick Jackson  33:44
not the most fun for me. I put it that way, but I made it through. I graduated and and ended up going to Columbus, Ohio, for my first post law school, firm job. But before graduating, though I used to call it my law school boondoggle, but it’s not, not really. It was just a study abroad experience that I had while in law school.  The first semester of my third year of law school I spent in the Netherlands.

Will Bachman  34:27
Wow.

Patrick Jackson  34:30
University of Wisconsin, for a lot of years, had an exchange program with the University of Groningen. I’m not pronouncing it like it’s really supposed to be, because it’s really Groningen, but it’s kind of hard to say that, but University of Groningen, in Groningen, they had a exchange program with University of Wisconsin law school, and so a handful of us went there for a semester, and a handful of their students went to. University of Wisconsin, and we lived, I end up living in a student house, student dorm, with other international students, Blekerslaan. And it was, it was, it was good experience. It was really good experience. I mean, you know, I was one of the older students there, by far, but, but it was a, it was a good experience getting to see, you know, the Netherlands and and there’s some things about, about being in Groningen in that I missed, like the the market on Tuesdays and Saturdays. That was always fun and and also having a bike and biking everywhere that was, you know, everybody biked. And what

Will Bachman  35:52
would you what would you pick up at the market? What was your What was your goal? You

Patrick Jackson  35:55
could, you could find everything. But my favorite thing was the fresh fish at the market, because they, you know, the the fishermen would bring in the fresh catch, you know, every market day, and so you can get fresh fish and all kinds of things there. You could also find it was not just a food market, but it was also like clothing and bags and and all kinds of things you can find, you know, a lot of things there, and just the hustle and bustle of people in the square area was kind of neat to see and need to be a part of. So

Will Bachman  36:35
that’s very and was the idea of that you were getting exposed to, like European legal systems? Well,

Patrick Jackson  36:43
yeah, it’s a, it’s a international law Semester Program, international comparative comparative law program. And so we, we had a, I had a comparative law course, criminal course, and, you know, couple other courses. And so it was a, you know, it was a good experience. And, you know, the the strongest part of it for me was just, you know, again, meeting the people from, you know, from Spain and Finland and England and, you know, different places and Germany and Switzerland and Sweden. We were quite a, quite a menagerie of of young folk together in that in that place, and so that was, that was a really good experience. I did it really not because I had a burning desire to study international law. I did it really because I had never studied abroad. I’ll admit I was too chicken to do it in undergrad, for whatever reason, I just thought, Oh, I can’t do this. But I when I learned about this opportunity, I was like, I can’t pass this up. And so I was able to do it. Some of our friends, a few of our friends, went to Italy, and then a few went to South Africa, which is the newest sort of study of our program that they had. And everything wasn’t really set for that one. And so I figured I would go with the one that was the older one, the one that had been established. And so I decided to go to Netherlands.

Will Bachman  38:43
Yeah, I I’m with you. I had, I did one semester abroad for my MBA, and went to in Mexico. And that was, Oh, wow. You know, it’s always a bit of a cost of you’re losing one semester with your peer group. But boy, that was such a great experience studying and we that was in Spanish and in a foreign country, just learning new ways of being taught. It was, it was just great. So I sound like it was good experience for you, what, what? What came after law school for you,

Patrick Jackson  39:19
after law school, I went to a firm in Columbus, Ohio, and I had done a summer there and then, so I ended up getting an offer. So I did a summer there, summer internship at the law firm there, I guess the summer before, you know, the summer between my second and third year. And so it was I did that that, and I found out while I was in the Netherlands that I got an offer for after graduation. And so I had interviewed, and there was some different places. I actually really wanted to go to Chicago, but that door wasn’t open. And so I ended up going to a pretty good-sized regional firm in Columbus, Ohio. And I figured, oh, well, you know it’s a new place I’ve never been. I was single and and so I was like, Well, it’s a new adventure. So I went, went to Columbus, Ohio, which ended up being the place where I met my wife. So Columbus will always have a special place, you know, in my heart. And little did I know I would be, you know, connected to Columbus for for a long time, but I ended up working, you know, at a firm there for a few years. I’ll be honest with you; I ended up really realizing that that really wasn’t one of what I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing. And so at the end of 2005 I left the firm. And I’ll say it, I’ll just be honest, it was a a mutual parting,

Will Bachman  41:15
okay, alright, we both agreed

Patrick Jackson  41:19
that it was time to part ways. So, you know, I’m leaving out a lot, but I left at the end of 2005 and wasn’t sure what was next.  I was still in Columbus. I wasn’t sure what I was gonna do. So I, you know, tried to interview for some things, and, you know, did some work short term for a small firm for a few months. But I really kind of wanted to get back to to DC and but it would take another year before I went back after working at the small firm, and then trying to get some interviews in DC, and 2006 and 2007.   I then ended up going back to Tennessee. I went back home for a little while and did some substitute teaching in my old high school and my old junior high. And that was interesting. I have a I have a great respect for teachers and all that they have to deal with and just the struggles that they have. One of my younger brothers is a long time kindergarten teacher, and that’s what he’s always wanted to do, and he’s great at it, and the kids love him and year after year, and they come back, you know, to see him years later, and he has a gift for it. I I’m glad I did it, and it gave me a better understanding, you know, just as of some of the things that he has to deal with. But, you know, I’m glad I did. It gave me a chance to regroup, and I end up going to, I end up finding an opportunity to go work for United Way of America as a federal lobbyist. Oh, okay, in 2008 and so January, 2008 I started working at it was then United. United Way of America is what it was called then. But I was in their federal policy office, and I was a lobbyist for them from 2008 till probably middle of 2009 and worked on, you know, some of the issues, some of the national issues, like the 211 information system to help, you know, states and localities get folks to resources in those particular areas that they need. I was a board alternate for the Emergency Food and Shelter National Board Program, which, which is, has been one of the most efficient programs, and you know, in the country, in terms of getting resources directly to to providers of of nutrition assistance in different communities around the country. And I got a chance to lobby for that as well. And so that was, you know, that was good experience, and but I wanted to, I had the itch. I wanted to get back on the hill. And I found out that former Senator Sherrod Brown was looking for a Legislative Assistant to add to his staff, and so I ended up going to work for for Senator Brown from 2009 to 2011. In the course of that time I got married. Now to back up a little bit. Now I’m kind of jumping around. I met my wife in 2006 while I was still in Columbus, Ohio, and we became friends and stayed in touch, even long distance. And it was, I think, the spring, spring of 2010 where we decided that we wanted to no longer just be friends, and that we wanted to move our relationship forward. And so we went from zero to 100 I like to say we were engaged by August and married in December of that year, and she spent, she had spent the majority of her life in Columbus, and she had a daughter from her first marriage. And so we, you know, we got married, we had a blended family in which she had joint custody, share parenting with her ex husband, and so that, that’s part, you know, part of the package. One of the things I was, I was working with Senator Brown, and, you know, she ended up coming to the DC area with me, but we had to figure out, you know, how we’re going to make the the custody arrangement work, if you know, if we’re going to be in this long distance situation. We did not want to go to court, we did not want to fight or anything like that. So we ended up going back to Columbus in 2011 so that both of our daughter’s birth parents could be in the same place. And so in 2011 I left Senator Brown’s office and we moved to back to Columbus. I didn’t have a position lined up, not something I would advise anybody to do but we really felt that we were led to make that sacrifice, because we wanted to make sure that McKenna had, our daughter had as as healthy, you know, experience as possible with, you know, both parents being in the same city. And so we made that, you know, we made that sacrifice during that time, though, I think I shared with you that I am the pastor of a church here In Iowa, in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. How I got here sort of relates to some, some, something that was going on during my last stint in DC, while I was at Senator Brown’s office. I been going to a church in Dumfries, Virginia, and serving in the music ministry there, because music has always been important to me, and I like to sing, and so I was involved there, but I was also going to US Senate Chaplain Barry Black’s weekly Bible studies. He had different ones for for Senators, for staff, for Senators, spouses and think for, you know, senior, you know, senior staff or whatever. And so I went to the general one that everybody could go to. And, you know, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed listening to him and learning from him. And so much so that I enrolled in his spiritual mentoring classes, which is when he would take, he take 10, people I believe,10 students. We’re all professionals on Capitol Hill, 10 of us for 10 weeks. And we would meet in his office in the Capitol.  It was a beautiful office, one of the best views in the city. But we met in his office, and he we’d go through different lessons each week, and they were biblically based and and it was really, it was just a great experience. And I think after that experience, while I was still there, I think at the end of one of the regular Bible studies, he came up to me and and said, Patrick, have you ever thought about going to seminary? And I said, No. He said I should think about it. And he kept walking.  He didn’t say another word about it. And I shared that with my wife when I got home that night.  I’m married someone who is an ordained American Baptist minister.

Will Bachman  51:09
Your wife is an ordained Baptist minister, yes, okay,

Patrick Jackson  51:14
who accepted her call to ministry when she was in high school in Ohio when at the time when it really was frowned upon.  And lot of folks, at least in Baptist circles, didn’t believe that that God could call women to serve as ministers or leaders.  And so she has a whole she has a great story of her own in terms of things that she has gone through, but she was, you know, she had a lot more experience and in that area than I did, but she didn’t try to steer me or or influence me. She just said, well, let’s pray about it. And she continued to support me as I began to sense what I call a call to ministry that got louder over time. And so, while I was serving Senator Brown and serving at Grace Church, and, you know, least, trying to, you know, rushing out as soon as I could, at the end of, you know, what would have, whatever my work day, whenever my work day ended, on Wednesdays, to make it to Wednesday evening service at Grace and to, you know, serve on on Sundays and different things I was doing all that while I was working on Capitol Hill for Senator Brown, and while I was, you know, getting the experience of learning from us, Senate Chaplain Barry Black, and the all of that, being in that crucible, I think that sort of laid the foundation, or added to the foundation that led me to where I am today. Now it would be, it would be two years before I would start. So I went back to Columbus in 2011 and still, you know, sort of sensing that burgeoning, you know, call to ministry, but not sure what to do about it, because I, you know, I had to find a job, you know. You know, we had a family so, but in 2013 you know, I had been praying about it and talking to a couple of trusted friends who were clergy and and really sensed that I needed to move forward, even though I kind of waited late in the cycle to apply for seminary, but I ended up playing anyway, And I didn’t want to wait until the next year, which might have helped me, just in terms of some, some of the, you know, logistical things, but I applied in 2013 got into Andover Newton Theological School, which was then on the Hill in Newton, Massachusetts. It’s now been, I was gonna say absorbed, but it’s now part of Yale–Yale Divinity School’s campus. It’s Andover Newton seminary at Yale Divinity School now, but at the time when I went in 2013 and graduated in 2017 we were still in Newton, Massachusetts. I ended up at Andover Newton, in part because a close friend of my wife, Pastor, Renee Keels. She was a graduate of Andover Newton, and suggested that I look at Andover Newton. And so I ended up getting, you know, interested in and looking at it and then going, and I ended up going there for seminary, and I think that was a really great decision, because one I ended up going back to, you know, Boston Area, my old stomping ground– as a very different person than I was when I left. And I was able to, you know, I experienced it differently being in grad school at Andover Newton and I ended up actually doing my two year seminary internship at the Memorial Church at Harvard. Oh, wow. Okay, and by then Dr Gomes had had passed, but but it was a great opportunity.  I’ll admit, I could probably count on one hand how many Memorial Church services I went to as an undergrad.

Will Bachman  56:17
Okay, all right, did you was there? Was there, was there a different church that you went to at the time, or

Patrick Jackson  56:25
well, and I was, I’m glad you mentioned that, because even though I had been a church kid, you know, grew up going to church, small country Baptist Church in in in Tennessee, down the street from my grandparents’ house. When I got to college, I kind of like, well, I don’t have to go to church every Sunday, or I don’t want to. So I didn’t really end up joining a church as a member while I was in in college. But one of the things that kept me connected was being part of the Harvard-Radcliffe Kuumba singers. I don’t know if you remember them, sure, but, but I was, I ended up joining Kuumba as a freshman at Harvard.  And I was, and that’s I was with them every, every year, except for one semester where I did a musical, the Errols. I was in that musical one semester. But outside of that, I was in Kuumba for every, every term. And that was like a formative experience. That was like a formative experience for me in terms of of the community that it provided. And, you know, I’ll be honest, Kuumba was church for me as an undergrad, in terms of just the community and the gathering and just the spirituality and the opportunity to do something that I ended up really loving to do, and so I that was, you know, you were going to ask about courses and things that that impacted me. But I’d say, although Kuumba was not a course, per se, but it was something that really, really made a difference in my Harvard experience.

Will Bachman  58:36
So you were back to mem church, back to Harvard? Yeah.

Patrick Jackson  58:42
Yeah. Jonathan Walton was the Pusey Minister at the time. He was in the the Gomes’ seat at the time, but my first year, I think it was my first year, he was on sabbatical for doing some writing, and Reverend Lucy Forster-Smith took over that that role while he was on sabbatical. And then my second year Professor Walton was back in the position. But it was, it was a great two years as a seminarian there and getting to be part of, you know, the Memorial Church, daily life, and being an opportunity, having an opportunity to serve, to serve there.  I learned a lot, and I think you know some of the things that I learned there helped me even today in ministry.

Will Bachman  59:49
So you graduate in 2017 Yeah, what happened then I

Patrick Jackson  59:56
graduated 2017 and I. I did well in seminary and and and graduated with honors, and I was selected by the faculty to be the student speaker for graduation. And that was just that was a great experience, but I didn’t have a church lined up. I didn’t have a position lined up for immediately after graduation. And I was like, man, you know, I feel like, you know, I had gone from the mountaintop to the valley after, you know, had a wonderful graduation week, but then, you know, I’m still looking for position. And so I, you know, I was around for a few weeks, but realized that, you know, I really needed to get back because my wife, Yvette, and I lived apart or commuted while I was in seminary. I ended up going pretty much, you know, almost full time, and living on campus at Andover Newton while my wife stayed in Columbus, working for, she had been the CEO of the Ohio Suicide Prevention Foundation for much of my time in seminary. And so also, you know, because McKenna, at that point, I think, was then, was going into high school, from junior high into high school, and you know, we wanted, you know, Yvette to be there for that formative period, for our, you know, for our daughter’s life. So, sure, so we commuted; so we have some experience doing the long distance thing. So while, so while I was in seminary, she was in Columbus and and then so I ended up going back to Columbus after seminary. And, you know, I continued to look for pastoral positions and seminary admissions positions and some other things. I ended up finding out about a pastoral residency, which is something I’d never heard of. You know, I was familiar with medical residencies, but I had never heard of a pastoral residency. And it as it turned out, a there was a person who had a connection to Andover Newton, who was serving at Richmond’s First Baptist Church in Richmond, Virginia, where he was the associate pastor or one of the associate pastors who was in charge of the residency program. And I was connected to him through, I think, through, I think my seminary advisor, and I think either the seminary advisor or the dean, I think was connected to him, and I talked to him, and he told me about the program, and he sent me the information. And I sat on it for a while, because part of me was like, I don’t want to do some residency program. I want to, you know, get a, you know, the full time position. But, you know, my wife and I talked about it and and prayed about it and decided that, you know, maybe it was something that we should explore. So one of the things that I I can’t remember if I shared with you in the email or not, Richmond’s First Baptist Church is a 200 and by this point, close to 250 year old Baptist Church, you know, in what was the cradle of the Confederacy, and who had its roots in the Southern Baptist Convention. I don’t know if you know anything about that, but you know, for me as an African American, to go to a place like that, it raised a few eyebrows, caused some consternation among those who were near and dear to us, who were concerned about our safety and how it would, you know, how we would be received and and that type of thing, just even considering it. But I applied and and. Interviewed and I was selected to be their pastoral resident for for 2018 to 2020. It is a two year residency program where you join the church staff as a full time minister, but you have a mentor and and a committee that you work with that helps you during your experience. Richmond’s First Baptist Church had broken away from the Southern Baptist Convention many years ago in terms of just a lot of the polity, in terms of their beliefs and different things about, particularly about women serving in ministry, and some other things. And I’m pretty sure as well, I was their first African American pastoral resident, and but we were, you know, my wife joined me there. And so we, we packed up and left Columbus in 2018 and moved to Richmond, Virginia. They and at that time, I don’t know if you remember, you know, that was not too long after that, unite, unite, the right rally in Charlottesville and that controversy, and just, you know, a lot of, a lot of tension going on in terms of the monuments and and Richmond’s First Baptist Church sat, or sits at what was the business end of one of those Confederate monuments, and which actually, which is actually no longer there, but it was, let’s just say some people were worried about us going to a 95 probably 96% white church that had roots in the Southern Baptist Convention. But we, my wife and I, were received in a way that we couldn’t have imagined. People, you know, opened, you know, welcomed us with open arms, and, you know, really responded well to you know the times when, when I served, and my wife also got a chance to serve in ministry there on a volunteer basis while she was working as a bereavement coordinator for one of the hospices in the city. And so it was that was just a great experience, and so much so that the folks in the congregation did not want us to leave in 2020 but there wasn’t really, there was some some change going on in terms of the the staff, but there wasn’t really a position that would have been a good fit for me there. And so I started the process of applying to American Baptist churches, you know, in different parts of the country. And when the dust settled, there were sort of two churches. There was a church in Maryland and the church where I am now, First Baptist Church-Church of the Brethren in Cedar Rapids, which was much further along in their process in 2020, and but when they, one of the things though that when they, when the one of the co chairs of the search committee reached out to me to see if I would be interested in applying, interested in applying to the church for their senior pastor position. I called him and asked him one question. I asked him, Are you ready?  Are you ready? In terms of, is the church ready to have an African American pastor? This is a church that, at that point had no, had not, didn’t have. Much in the way of diversity. And so the co chair said, he said, Patrick, I really think we are, I think I think we’re ready. And said, Okay, well, let’s start the conversation. And you know, one of the things for my wife and I, we, you know, continue to pray. We pray about every situation, and one of our prayers was like, you know, God, if this isn’t the right place, then close the door, slam it shut, make it clear that this is a no, and I end up interview what the the process in terms of, after you submit your you know materials, and you have a couple of phone conversations, and if you’re someone that the church is really interested in, then they’ll invite you out for what’s called a candidate weekend, and so you get a chance to meet members of the Church preach there on a Sunday, and then the church votes on whether to call you or not. And so that was a, this was, I think, a weekend in June, I think of of 2020, during the pandemic. And I did my, you know, had my interview, you know, had my interview, and, and did my preaching for that weekend, and, and they were going to vote right after the service. And so we were taken. We were take we were taken to lunch while the church was voting on whether or not, only not, this isn’t the process for everybody, but that’s the process that they had. And so, you know, we’re having lunch and and then they in, whoever our host was, got the call said, okay, they’re back, you know, the church is, or the, you know, kind of like when you’re a court, you know, the the jury’s back, the jury’s back. So we went back over to the church and and they said that it, it was like 67 to three. It wasn’t and so it was not a close vote. And so at that point, we felt like we had the sign that this was one that we should say yes to and so that’s how I ended up where I am now,

Will Bachman  1:12:45
wow. What? What a story. I mean, you explicitly talked about how it was, you know, gave you a bit of concern, and people, you know, raised eyebrows and so forth. What has it been like for you as an African American pastor at a predominantly white congregation?

Patrick Jackson  1:13:10
I’ll say that we’ve been blessed here as well. The people here have welcomed us. I will share she that one of the first questions I got during my candidate weekend was from a member who who prefaced her question by saying, “Now Mr. Jackson, I’ve been to some black churches, and what I want to know is, are you going to try to turn us into a loud church, and are you going to try to tell us how to worship?”  That was the first question I got from you know, one of the members. Because what they did in terms of, because there was a, there was a they had the day structured. They had a weekend structure. You know, we got in Friday night, they had us for a dinner at the home of, you know, one member of the search committee. Saturday was, you know, breakfast, and then a sort of tour the city, and then back over to the church for a Q and A with members. And they had people there, social, socially distanced or because of the pandemic, and they had some people by zoom. They had some people on the phone. And so it was kind of a free for all, anybody could ask whatever they wanted to ask. And so that was one of the first questions I got. And I was like, okay, so this is how I was going to stop. But the way I answered it was that, you know, God has blessed us with. It an amazing array of styles and ways of worship and music, and I would never try to turn you, or, you know, turn anybody, into anything other than who they are. My desire is that you be free and feel free to respond or not respond in the way that you’re wired to do so, but I will say, I bring me all of me, and I won’t try to hide that from anybody. And so you know, that that was how, essentially, how I answered the question. But the, you know, I was the church responded, and we said, Yes, and so we packed up and moved from Richmond to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And we arrived. We arrived August 16, 2020, which, as you recall, was still in that, that part of the pandemic where we’re, you know, many places weren’t meeting in person and but what had happened that week before we arrived, is Eastern Iowa had experienced a derecho. You know what a derecho is? No, it’s an it’s an inland hurricane, oh, essentially, and 100 mile an hour winds and and rain and that it tore through eastern Iowa, and we arrived, maybe like on a Sunday night, like on 915, or nine o’clock PM, and there was a curfew in the city of 10 o’clock, and so we had to scramble to get a few things from a local store to be in by the curfew. You couldn’t really see the extent of the damage until the next day was but as we drove around the city, it looked like a bomb had been dropped, wow. And there was a 30 by 50 foot hole in the roof of the church where I was supposed to start my first pastorate. That was our welcome to Cedar Rapids. Welcome to Iowa. Wow, yeah. And so we, you know, the they already were not meeting in person, but you know, this was, you know, significant blow. What was also one of the things we laugh about now is that, as we were packing up that week before the derecho hit on August 10, while we were still in Richmond, when the movers came to get our things, because they were going to go, we were sending the movers on ahead, and we had some people who would meet them and get our stuff moved in before we arrived, because we still had some things to take care of in Richmond.  The moving company asked, are you sure we’re going to be able to get in to your place? Oh, gosh, yes. And I said, I sure hope so, because if not, we’re in a pickle. So by faith, we trusted that the moving company would be able to get in, and sure enough, they were.  You know, a number of people did not have electricity. Some didn’t have running water. At that point, we were blessed to have both in our apartment here. And so we, you know, we got here and and, began our time here. My first day in the office was August 24, 2020 and my first day in the pulpit, my first Sunday in the pulpit, was August, August 30, 2020 but we weren’t meeting in person, and so we were I, uh, recording our services by video. And so I would go over to the church and and record my sermon and, and we had other folks who would record, you know, readings and music and, and then our, you know, my office, office manager, who also wears two or three different hats, she was able to she piece the service together for the YouTube and we post it. You know, each week during the pandemic, until Easter. Sunday, 2021 when we first met in person. And so yeah, we didn’t meet as a full congregation in person until Easter. Sunday, 2021 after arriving in August of 2020 Wow,

Will Bachman  1:20:20
Patrick, you talked earlier about your participation in Kuumba and how that was so formative for you. Were there any other courses or professors you had at Harvard that continue to resonate?

Patrick Jackson  1:20:36
The late Professor Martin Kilson, government professor. And I took, I think, an undergrad and a graduate course from him, and there was, there was a course on sort of political development, African American political development in the south, I think so. That wasn’t the exact name of it, but that was sort of a course I took my freshman year from Professor Kilson, and he was just a character. I don’t know if you ever met Professor Kilson, but he had this, he wear this tweed jacket and and slacks and boots and a cowboy hat. And he, he was a long time professor government trailblazer in his own right. You know, one of the early African American professors, full tenured professors at Harvard, you know, in the modern era. And and just, you know, just a character, and just, you know, brilliant, but very frank. And his frankness was sometimes off putting to some students, because he he he didn’t miss words about just the history and, you know, politics in the United States.  I took a graduate course from him on Africa, African political systems, power and legitimacy.  I learned a lot about, you know, Nigeria and the Congo and Kenya and different places, just things I’ve never known about. You know about those places and their road to independence after being colonized for so many years, and so that you know, that course definitely stands out. I also had, I took Graham, Graham Boone’s jazz course that stands out as well because also it was one of my electives. And you know, it fed my love of music, and I kept in touch with Graham after some years.  He is married to one of our classmates,

Will Bachman  1:23:21
Gabrielle Burton, yes, right,

Patrick Jackson  1:23:25
and they were, they were at, at my wedding. They attended my, yeah, they were at my wedding with good, with the, the oldest, I think, in tow at that point. Okay, but so that was neat that they were able to share in that special day, you know, with with with me and my wife, amazing

Will Bachman  1:23:50
Patrick. For listeners who want to follow up, maybe see some YouTube videos of you preaching or, you know, just gotta stay in touch. Where would you point them? Online?

Patrick Jackson  1:24:05
They can find me on LinkedIn, under you know, under Patrick Jackson. They can also go to the website for our church: www.thechurchonnorthland.com.

Will Bachman  1:24:28
Alright, we’ll include those links in the show notes. Patrick, thank you so much for joining today and sharing your story.

Patrick Jackson  1:24:36
Yeah. Oh, thank you for the opportunity. I apologize. I know it kind of jumped around a lot and but, but I’m grateful for the opportunity to share and and grateful for you, you know, being willing to undertake this project, and you know, getting to having the opportunity to learn more about our classmates and maybe even reconnect in some ways.